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Let's step away for a second from this brain-dulling chase for any information on who's coming in and who's not for interviews for the Giants' defensive coordinator's spot. I'll keep an eye on things, and if I find out anything, I'll update you as fast as I can.
But since I opened up this whole Kurt Warner issue yesterday, I thought it might be fun to formalize the
opinions, considering they've been scattered throughout the posts over the past two days. What makes it even more fun is that Warner has that Giants connection, having quarterbacked the squad for the first nine games of 2004, before Tom Coughlin deemed it time to turn the page at 5-4 and begin the Eli Manning era.
I started things by saying Warner is not yet a Hall-of-Fame quarterback, since he had a huge lull between his off-the-charts first three seasons and his current career with the Arizona Cardinals. In between, because of injuries and inconsistency, he was often average, and often below average. Even at the time of his removal with the Giants, he happened to be playing poorly, if you remember.
However, one more Super Bowl appearance should do it for me.
Now, in one space here, give me your opinions. Don't be afraid to repeat stuff from previous posts. I just don't want anybody to be shy about it if they do have an opinion, but didn't feel it appropriate to post it in an entry about defensive coordinators.
Have some fun with it and get a good discussion going. Meanwhile, I still have my ear on the railroad track. Hey, is that the 1:20 out of Penn Station coming?
EP
But since I opened up this whole Kurt Warner issue yesterday, I thought it might be fun to formalize the
opinions, considering they've been scattered throughout the posts over the past two days. What makes it even more fun is that Warner has that Giants connection, having quarterbacked the squad for the first nine games of 2004, before Tom Coughlin deemed it time to turn the page at 5-4 and begin the Eli Manning era.I started things by saying Warner is not yet a Hall-of-Fame quarterback, since he had a huge lull between his off-the-charts first three seasons and his current career with the Arizona Cardinals. In between, because of injuries and inconsistency, he was often average, and often below average. Even at the time of his removal with the Giants, he happened to be playing poorly, if you remember.
However, one more Super Bowl appearance should do it for me.
Now, in one space here, give me your opinions. Don't be afraid to repeat stuff from previous posts. I just don't want anybody to be shy about it if they do have an opinion, but didn't feel it appropriate to post it in an entry about defensive coordinators.
Have some fun with it and get a good discussion going. Meanwhile, I still have my ear on the railroad track. Hey, is that the 1:20 out of Penn Station coming?
EP
I am just going to copy and paste this from my previous post.
ReplyDeleteIn thinking of HoF QBs in regards to Warner, the thought of Jim Kelly jumped out at me. In non-statistical comparison, Warner has one SB ring and two NFL MVP awards. Kelly has no SB rings and I could not find any info regarding if he was ever NFL MVP, but I don't remember him ever receiving the award. Statstical comparison: Kelly played in 160 games, Warner 125. Kelly had a career QB rating of 84.4 compared to Warner's 93.7. Kelly passed for 35,467; Warner 32,344. Kelly had 237 TD passes, 175 ints, Warner 208, 128. Kelly career pass percentage, 60.1%; Warner 65.5%. Take into account that Jim Kelly played in 35 more games than Warner. Kelly was 0-4 in SB games(do account for one SB he got hurt early and missed the rest of the game), Warner 1-2 (and that one SB victory was about one yard short of a loss). Both are stand-up guys, who are true competitors. IF Warner can continue moderate numbers for a season and a half, he should catch up with Kelly. This is an interesting argument, as I can see both sides' point. Both had good weapons at times and mediocre weapons other times. If I had a vote, I think I would give it to Warner. Maybe not first ballot, but down the road.
I am still trying to figure out how Roger Craig and Cris Carter are not already in.
Kurt Warner is one of only 2 players in NFL history to pass for over 100 td with two different teams. He has been the QB on 3 Super Bowl teams, won the MVP and a Super Bowl. Those first three years were off the charts, in fact he was the engineer of one of the greatest offenses in NFL history. This isn't baseball where a guy needs greatness for 15 years, it is football which has a short career span. First ballot, IN!
ReplyDeleteCE718 - Kelley played in Buffalo and Warner's numbers came primarily in a dome and Arizona. I'm not a huge fan of either QB, but Kelley's numbers were harder to come by based on playing conditions alone. BTW - Marv Levy blew at least one Super Bowl for Buffalo. Go back and look at Thurman Thomas' numbers in Super Bowl against the Giants. If Levy had used Thomas a few more times that game, the Giants would have lost. I was lucky enough to be at that game and I kept saying to all my fellow Giants fans "Thank God they aren't giving Thomas the ball every down!". He was killing NY that game. Thomas said he should have been the MVP for that game and he kinda had a point.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely, Warner is a Hall of Famer. Three Super Bowl appearances and still going strong. There really shouldn't be much debate.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry I don't see it. The guy has had 4 1/2 great years and six bad to average ones.
ReplyDeleteThe best argument for him is that he did make lead a team to three Super Bowls. And I like the comparison with Jim Kelly, but a few things:
1. The two played in different periods. It's much easier to throw the ball this last decade than any previous one. Especialy with the pass interference calls. A DB can't touch a receiver anymore without a flag being thrown. And teams throw more now than they did 20 years ago. Bill Simmons had an interesting piece where he said something like four of the five best passing years of al-time came this decade.
2. Kelly played in Buffalo. Warner had his most success in St. Louis (a dome) and Arizona.
I'm sorry I don't see it. His three years in St. Louis were special (although he only played eight games his second season). And his last two years in Arizona have been special.
Yes he has an MVP and Super Bowl ring, but he's not a HOF. Here are some stats for you:
Warner ranks 26th in passing yards all-time and TD's. He;s right around guys like Ken Anderson, Mark Brunell, McNabb. And in TD's he's next to Cunningham, Drew Brees (who has a few more years), McNabb and Tom Brady.
Anyone near him in those lists either have a few more years left or aren't HOFers.
Yes he is second in PYG, but right behind him are Jay cutler and Marc Bulger -- not HOFers.
If we talk about Warner being in, why not Tiki Barber?
Barber's 11th all-time in yards from scrimmage. Right behind and in front of him? Tomlinson, Tony Dorsett, Edgerrin James, Erick Dickerson, Isaac Bruce.
And we all know Tiki isn't getting in. Listen, numbers wise, I don't hink Warner is a HOFer. But if you want to use the fact that he won a Super Bowl and an MVP as a boost to get him in, I can't argue that.
But looking at the numbers and his career, it was four years of incredible play. That does not constitute induction for me.
I definitely think he belongs in the HOF.
ReplyDeleteCompare his numbers to Troy Aickman and Steve Young:
Kurt 32,344 yds, 65% comp, 208 TDs/128 INTs, 93.7 QB rating, 2 time MVP, 1 SB ring
Troy 32,942 yds, 61% comp, 165 TDs/141 INTs, 81.6 QB rating, 3 SB rings
Steve 33,124 yds, 64% comp, 232 TDs, 107 INTs, 96.8 qb rating, 2 time MVP, 3 SB rings (1 as a starter)
Dan and Dweez, yes Kelly played half of each season in Buffalo and Warner half his season in St. Louis/Arizona. They still had to play on the road, which means Kelly got to go to Miami once a year and Warner had to play in Seattle (not always best weather conditions). Dan, I agree that the league has become more pass oriented since the time of Kelly, but was just making a statistical comparison to show that, despite playing in about 2 less seasons than Kelly, Warner is creeping up on his stats. A season and a half of decent numbers and Warner would have the same stats. Taking into account that Warner has only played an entire season 3 times. In '98, '02, '03, '06, he played in less than 10 games. His numbers would be more inflated despite those years. The QBs mentioned in Dan's post, only one is a sure fire HoF player and that's Brady. Brees and McNabb still have time left, and Brees is more likely than McNabb. I think the HoF should come down to in order: Accolades received during playing career and then stats. Yes, he had some "down" years, but in all years he played 10 or more games, his lowest QB rating was 85.8, and if retired this year, would walk away with a career QB rating of 93.7. Warner is a SB winner and a two time NFL MVP. He has always been a tremendous leader and a good role model. The dude led the CARDINALS to the Super Bowl and they are knocking on the door again! We are talking the Cardinals! I think Warner should get in at some point and if he doesn't, so be it. Not going to be the end of the world. I think it would add to the good story of his, going from grocery bagger, to the Arena league, to an NFL MVP. It is something that, when coaching, I do let the youth know that nothing is impossible. I have used Warner as such an example.
ReplyDeleteShortly after retiring, I remember all of the HoF questions regarding Tiki. I think that an argument can be made on his behalf with regards to a HoF entry for him. I will not engage in such a debate, given the guy's attitude after retiring. I am still a bit bitter towards him and the jersey of his I had, is now buried in a box somewhere. Hampton's jersey gets more of my attention than his.
I'll make it short and sweet, if Warner belongs in the HOF then so does Phil Simms.
ReplyDeleteI dunno. I think he's on the fence and if I voted today I don't think I would vote him in. However, if he has another playoff run in him and he sticks around next year and puts up big numbers he could go.
ReplyDeleteThe issue with Warner is that he went quiet in the middle of his career. It's a strange one, to say the least.
What I think will ultimately get him in is that he is a world-class guy with a wonderful story (packing groceries to Superbowl). In this game, that makes you stand out.
Chris B.